I thought I’d just open the discussion up for anyone who’s interested in talking about the Hall of Fame ballot results. Here are the results from today. It was a shutout as far a the BBWAA ballot was concerned. It was the first time since 1996 that no one was voted in by them.
There have already been a few emails today broaching the subject. Todd Ventresca from my league is a bit frustrated with a few of the BBWAA voters (ok, he called them “idiots”). That’s because a few of them didn’t vote for Biggio “not because of the steroid cloud, but because they don’t vote for first timers”.
I’d have to agree with him on that. I remember a time when “first ballot hall of famer” wasn’t even considered a metric in the Hall of Fame process. In my opinion, if you’re qualified, you get in.
On the other hand, Scott Fennessy was a little surprised to see Biggio get as many votes as he did and would have liked to have seen more support for Lee Smith. He was pleased that those who took advantage of PEDs weren’t rewarded.
As for Biggio, anyone doubting Biggio’s support should read Bill James’ Historical Baseball Abstract. There, he makes the argument that Biggio makes a comparable contribution to the game as Ken Griffey Jr. did. James probably overstates his point but it’s well taken.
Here is the final ballot. None on the BBWAA ballot made required 75% (sorry Ryan Klesko!). The Veterans Committee selected Jacob Ruppert, Hank O’Day and Deacon White.
| Rk | YoB | Votes | %vote | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Craig Biggio | 1st | 388 | 68.2% | ||||
| 2 | Jack Morris | 14th | 385 | 67.7% | ||||
| 3 | Jeff Bagwell | 3rd | 339 | 59.6% | ||||
| 4 | Mike Piazza | 1st | 329 | 57.8% | ||||
| 5 | Tim Raines | 6th | 297 | 52.2% | ||||
| 6 | Lee Smith | 11th | 272 | 47.8% | ||||
| 7 | Curt Schilling | 1st | 221 | 38.8% | ||||
| 8 | Roger Clemens | 1st | 214 | 37.6% | ||||
| 9 | Barry Bonds | 1st | 206 | 36.2% | ||||
| 10 | Edgar Martinez | 4th | 204 | 35.9% | ||||
| 11 | Alan Trammell | 12th | 191 | 33.6% | ||||
| 12 | Larry Walker | 3rd | 123 | 21.6% | ||||
| 13 | Fred McGriff | 4th | 118 | 20.7% | ||||
| 14 | X-Dale Murphy | 15th | 106 | 18.6% | ||||
| 15 | Mark McGwire | 7th | 96 | 16.9% | ||||
| 16 | Don Mattingly | 13th | 75 | 13.2% | ||||
| 17 | Sammy Sosa | 1st | 71 | 12.5% | ||||
| 18 | Rafael Palmeiro | 3rd | 50 | 8.8% | ||||
| 19 | X-Bernie Williams | 2nd | 19 | 3.3% | ||||
| 20 | X-Kenny Lofton | 1st | 18 | 3.2% | ||||
| 21 | X-Sandy Alomar | 1st | 16 | 2.8% | ||||
| 22 | X-Julio Franco | 1st | 6 | 1.1% | ||||
| 23 | X-David Wells | 1st | 5 | 0.9% | ||||
| 24 | X-Steve Finley | 1st | 4 | 0.7% | ||||
| 25 | X-Shawn Green | 1st | 2 | 0.4% | ||||
| 26 | X-Aaron Sele | 1st | 1 | 0.2% | ||||
| 27 | X-Mike Stanton | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 28 | X-Jeff Cirillo | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 29 | X-Jeff Conine | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 30 | X-Reggie Sanders | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 31 | X-Royce Clayton | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 32 | X-Roberto Hernandez | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 33 | X-Ryan Klesko | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 34 | X-Todd Walker | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 35 | X-Rondell White | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 36 | X-Jose Mesa | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
| 37 | X-Woody Williams | 1st | 0 | 0.0% | ||||
Not surprised that no one got in because of all the steroids hoopla…….
However i am very surprised at the lack of respect given to Bernie Williams. You can think im biased but take a close look at his career……he was an excellent player year after year.
I know his totals fall short of normal HOF entrants but
Dom,
I just noticed that too. Not everyone thinks of Bernie of a superstar but he was a real winner.
Short
I’m glad the standard for election is high. It’s a Hall of “Fame” and not a Hall of “Really Good.” I think it should be reserved for only the best of the best. I wouldn’t vote for anyone suspected of using steroids myself and I think it should be reserved for those dominant in the game during their career. Having said that, I don’t understand why Lee Smith has not been elected (and maybe I’m a biased Cardinals fan) and I think Curt Schilling should be considered. Same with Tim Raines. Those are names we heard during their years. Biggio, Bagwell and Morris were solid, but hall of fame worthy? I don’t know.
Al,
I also feel the standards are too low, and honestly believe there are many currently enshrined that do not belong. Do you think media popularity (or lack thereof) seems to play a part?
Tim Raines would get my vote.
I’ve found that it’s easier to see how moronic a voter is by who he or she does vote for, not who he or she does not vote for. Whoever voted for Aaron Sele should lose their right to vote.
Bill Mueller didn’t get one but four votes in 2012.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2012.shtml
all based on his one batting crown, I’m sure.
Craig, I agree completely on your comments regarding Sele getting a vote. I read somewhere that one of the guys voting on the baseball hall of fame is currently working as a journalist for GOLF DIGETST.
I was also disapointed to see Shawn Green got two votes. (and I currently live in the town he was born in)
Well guys, are you satisfied? Does it make you feel good that you’ve been petty enough to deny THE GREATEST PLAYERS of our generation entry into the Hall of Fame, due to an issue of purity? Why can’t you demand the same of your politicians? You should be ashamed of yourselves. I’m disgusted. The Hall of Fame can go fuck itself.
I think Pete Rose, and Shoeless Joe should also be in the hall
I would have voted for Bonds because out of all these guys I feel he would have gotten in had he never used anything. Trammel, Raines, and Morris are holdovers who would also get my vote. The rest of these guys either aren’t good enough or were obvious cheats.
Maybe the writers shouldn’t have the vote any more. The current members of the hall of fame could decide who goes in, or if a player reaches certain statistical milestones he’s in automatically. Maybe a combination of the two.
Mel,
I agree the voters need to be better vetted, but putting it squarely in the hands of the current members can be just as bad.
Personal grudges abound including where Joe Morgan was actively campaining to keep Ryne Sandberg out, even though Sandberg’s numbers were better than HIS.
Regarding target numbers I don’t know how that would work considering the way the game has changed over the years, and in the post roid era, mere decades, espically when compairing to the deadball era players.
Scott,
I would bet there are baseball writers who hold grudges too.
Biggio, 3060 hits. Piazza, one of the greatest hitting catchers of all time. I think both deserved to ge voted in. Being on the ballot for e first time shouldn’t matter. Jack Morris may have had a high ERA, but he won ballgames pitching in hitter friendly home ballparks. He should be voted in.
Mel,
I agree with that completely; as I mentioned in another post further up where I believe that the players attitudes towards the writers may have held them back, or even gotten a non deserving player in.
I understand Morris pitching in a hitter friendly park, but his comments of “pitching to the score” is a load of BS in my opinion only. I don’t PERSONALLY think he should get in, espically before a dominating closer like Lee Smith. But I would not be disappointed should he eventually get admission either.
Highly recommend Bill James’ book, “Politics of Glory,” from about 20 years ago. Good examination of who gets in, who doesn’t, and why.
Some things to remember:
1) There are exactly 300 members in the BBHoF. about 200 are playes. The writers chose 107. There have been six other routes into the Hall, such as committees on the Negro League and Veterans. Most of the really egregious player selections — Fred Lindstrom, Bobby Wallace, George Kelly — have come from the veterans group.
2) Stats have context. In an offensive era, 3,000 hits is less impressive. As game strategy has changed, 300 wins becomes more impressive. I paid 50 cents a gallon for gas in college. I don’t expect to pay the same today.
3) It’s baseball. Outrage is misplaced.
I think a HOFer must have both stellar career stats as well as peak seasons that set them apart from just the very good players (MVP, Cy Young, etc.). Biggio had 3000+ hits but was he a dominant player in his time? Probably not. Jack Morris, probably not. Bagwell, probably not. However, givne his career save number, I think Lee Smith should be in the HOF. I am surp[rised that he does not have more support. I would vote for him.
I like Rains, Morris, Trammel, Bagwell, Schilling & Bagwell. I really liked Dale Murphy & how does Jim Rice get in & Dwight Evans is a no? I would vote for Biggio add well. Just some ramblings:)
Here is the thing tht baffles me….all of these same writers tht are now stone walling the steroid era (not tht I agree with using PEDs), voted Bonds MVP from ’01-’04. His head was a medicine ball!
Oh yeah, Gil Hodges should be in.
Shawn
Shawn:
As someone who watched the Rice/Evans era, Rice was the most feared hitter in baseball. Evans was acknowledged as a very good hitter and oft-time Gold Glove.
On a 162-game average:
Evans, .272, 24 HR, 86 RBI
Rice, .298, 30 HR, 113 RBI
Rice won an MVP, was top-five in voting five other times. He should have been in the Hall earlier, but was hurt by his surly attitude with writers. Evans was third in the MVP, once. He is borderline, because fielding and a long career don’t count very much.
Thanks Tom:)
I was just looking@Evans stats but hadn’t looked at Rice foutre a while. I didn’t realize their 162 gm averages were tht different. I didn’t get to see Rice in his 70s hey day! I saw both if them in the 80s where they both were solid players & all stars but add I look at numbers Rice sustained his peak longer. I heard tht Rice said he hit what ever the team needed to get the runner over or score the run. I liked tht, true team player.
Shawn
Sorry typing Bagwell twice:)
I just heard on a local sports talk show that Japan has two halls of fame. One a player is voted in, the other based on statistics.
Nothing like a Hall of Fame thread to generate responses.
A couple of opinions:
— I wouldn’t vote for a steroid guy for the Hall of Fame.
— Joe Morgan is the best all-around 2B-man in baseball history. Ryne Sandberg is a true Hall of Famer, but “he was no Joe Morgan.”
— Jim Rice was a LOT better player than Dwight Evans. Dwight Evans was “a poor man’s Rocky Colavito.” And The Rock was one of my 4 favorite all-time players (the other 3 are Reggie Jackson, Shawon Dunston and ICHIRO), but Rocky was not a Hall of Famer. I once asked my Dad if The Rock belonged in the Hall of Fame. My Dad informed me that Colavito was “a poor man’s Hank Sauer.” And “absolutely not.” Maybe being a curmudgeon is hereditary.
— I think it is an added honor to being a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Just as it is more of an honor to be voted in by the writers than by the veterans committee. It’s a way of saying that Willie Mays was better than Tony Perez, who was better than Ron Santo.
DonS.
Don, You make some good points, interesting you chose Dunston as one of your fave 4. Considering he played when Grace/Sandberg/Dawson were on the team you don’t usually see him mentioned as a “favorite”, although I will NEVER forget the Shawn-O-Meter at Wrigley.
I would have to respectfully disagree with you on Sandberg vs. Morgan. Joe hit in front of what 8 hall of famers? Sandberg never had anything other than Andre Dawson for a couple of years and Mark Grace.
Grace is one of my favorites, but he certainly is not on the scale of hitters Morgan was surrounded with. Switch the two around and would the numbers be as close?
I love Mark Grace! My favorite player of all time. He is the reason I became a cubs fan back during his rookie year! Ryno if one of my favs as well & remember the Shawn-O-Meter, he was an under rated player. So was Gracie for tht matter, most hits & most doubles in the 90s…of course no consideration for the Hall. Ah, those old cubbie teams, 1989 one my favorite:)
my only comment abt Santo, he may have not been the offensive threat tht Perez was but Santo was no slouch &a better 3b than Perez, thts why he moved to first. Tragedy, Santo had to pass away, then they put him in. He should’ve been way way before tht.
Shawn;)
http://voices.yahoo.com/voters-deny-any-hall-fame-hopefuls-11987468.html?cat=9